Anticipatory Anxiety Explained

Anticipatory anxiety – the anxiety you feel when you have an event or challenge coming up that you know will make you anxious and therefore fear – is a common type of anxiety that many struggle with. This week on the podcast two giants in the anxiety community, Martin Seif and Sally Winston, joined me to explain in the ins-and-outs of anticipatory anxiety, worry, and what they call fear of fear of fear.

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Full Transcript Of Today’s Interview

Drew Linsalata 3:08
Okay, everybody, as promised, here with me in the studio, which is the same office I’m always in. And I guess their studios are doctors, CIF and Winston on this site, and they’re authors of so many of the books I know you all love. I know I’m a huge fan. Today we’re going to talk about this one. We’re talking about anticipatory anxiety, because it’s this is your newest, your latest, I assume. Yes. Yes, it is. It is called overcoming anticipatory anxiety. And it is written by these two pioneers. And I know for most of you guys heroes in the field, and I’m fanboying a little bit here, so hang in there with me. But

Drew Linsalata 3:47
yeah, we’ll walk through the whole anticipatory anxiety thing. It’s a huge topic in this community for sure. It stumbles a lot of people stumble on it. So if you guys are into it, we’ll just kind of walk through the book, what made you I’ll throw it out to either of you. What made you write this book? What was the impetus to write this one?

Martin Seif 4:03
Well, I can answer that very easily. But I’ve had considerable anxiety in my life. And as I struggled to kind of overcome that anxiety, it became very clear to me that there was a distinct component of anxiety, which can only be described as anticipatory anxiety. And

Martin Seif 4:24
can I go on and talk a little bit about anticipatory? I mean, anticipatory anxiety is really the anxiety or discomfort or distress that you feel before you do something that makes you anxious or uncomfortable. And although it’s not a diagnosis in itself, it’s really connected to just about every disorder that has anxiety or obsessive compulsive disorder. It’s connected to lots of some mood disorders in some way. And it’s, and it’s a it’s, it’s really ubiquitous, and it is

Martin Seif 5:00
extremely common. So if you are concerned about taking an elevator tomorrow and you’re worrying about it, that’s anticipatory anxiety, if you have to give a presentation, and you’re concerned that it may not come out, and you’re thinking about it the day before, that’s anticipatory anxiety, if you have intrusive thoughts, and you’re worried about yelling something out in a classroom, and you’re walking through the classroom, that can is anticipatory anxiety, there’s sometimes there’s a real big cognitive component to it, where you’re worrying about it. And sometimes you can just wake up with a stomach ache and realize that oh, my goodness, I have a test today that I didn’t study for. That’s the concept of anticipatory anxiety.

Martin Seif 5:46
So I’ve suffered from it. And I’ve experienced it a lot in my life. And it felt to me that it was something that we should write about.

Drew Linsalata 5:56
Yeah, I would agree. I that’s kind of a normal part of the human experience, even outside the realm of an anxiety disorder, mood disorder, everybody, like, you know, oh, my goodness, I have a presentation to give. I’m so nervous about it. That’s anticipated.

Sally Winston 6:08
Yeah, it’s a normal part of human experience, because we have an imagination. And we think about what’s coming up, right. The reason we wanted to write a book is that if you think about it, anticipatory anxiety is the primary driver of avoidance, avoidance behavior, either behavioral avoidance, like canceling something, or trying to get someone else to do it for you, or making excuses all the time to not do something. Or before for experiential avoidance, which is a way of being in the situation, but also trying really hard not to actually be there or experience it. So because avoidance behavior is so much a part of what drives the disability of anxiety are the things that get in the way of living. Well. If we felt like this was a topic that was underrepresented, and we wanted to address it.

Drew Linsalata 7:10
I am amazed that nobody has written this book before. Like, there. I don’t know that anybody has written a book specifically on this, but you’re right, it bridges all of the different diagnosis. You see it all over this community, regardless of the struggle that anybody has. They deal with anticipatory anxiety. So one of the things that I loved about the book is the way you you step through a bunch of different things, which is great. But I would like to acknowledge the challenge that it presents, right? So people that are listening today are dealing with panic disorder, they’re dealing with agoraphobia, they’re dealing with OCD, hypo … health anxiety. And in the end, those challenges are hard enough. anticipatory anxiety always seems to make the challenge seem even harder than it already is. Like the it’s almost people interpret it as confirmation that the challenge is, in fact, damn near impossible. Does that …

Sally Winston 8:02
If I’m as anxious as I am now, and I’m not even there, and it’s three weeks from now, what will it be like when I’m actually there? And so what what we do know is that anticipatory anxiety lies. It doesn’t tell you the truth about what how things are really going to go or what’s really going to happen. It’s not a predictor. It’s not a warning. It’s not a sign, and yet it sure feels like it.

Drew Linsalata 8:29
Oh, yeah, feels like …

Martin Seif 8:31
So that goes back to the idea that anxiety is a great bluffer. It’s a great trickster. It kind of fools you in lots of different ways. It also, but it’s also very helpful for people to be able to distinguish the fact that there are there is the anxiety of something that they’re concerned about, for example,

Martin Seif 8:55
I’m afraid of flying, okay, there’s, that’s, that’s a good one, because people often worry about it for a long time beforehand. And there’s the actual anxiety or distress when a person is in the situation that they’re concerned about. And then there’s a separate component, anticipatory anxiety, and sometimes being able to separate that between the two, conceptually, is really transformative for people who say, Oh, this is anticipatory anxiety. This is my imagination in some way. Furthermore, it’s a really good – once you get a person to focus on the fact that they’re, that this is anticipatory anxiety – it’s a really good way to help them focus on the method (and how can I put it) the mechanism of anxiety generation because when you’re sitting in your room, in your living room on a Tuesday night, getting freaked out about the flight that you’re supposed to take on Saturday morning, there’s no excuse? You’re actually in your

Martin Seif 9:59
Imagination, there’s no way that you can say, Well, I’m afraid that the plane is gonna crack. No, you’re really in your imagination now. And that’s a helpful conceptualization people, and helps us make the point that we want to make that somehow we in some way with our imagination and our thinking, and the way we perceive our bodily reactions, that we somehow sort of generate the distress that we feel.

Drew Linsalata 10:27
Which is super powerful. I think if you can get people to get on board with that idea, because so many people in the community we’re addressing see the anxiety itself as the problem. So yeah, they’re nervous about the challenge, because you wrote anticipatory anxiety is being afraid of being afraid of being afraid which I…

Martin Seif 10:41
Yeah, that’s the third. That’s that’s the it’s the fear of the fear of the fear. It’s like third. And I think that’s pretty accurate. I think that’s, that’s, that’s correct. Yeah.

Drew Linsalata 10:54
Yeah, I mean, would you Dr. Winston, do you have anything to add on that?

Sally Winston 10:58
Let me give an example of the fear of the fear of the fear just because it sounds so weird when you just say it that way. But the example that we use, I think we use it in the book is I’m afraid of a bee.

Sally Winston 11:12
That’s fear. Then I’m afraid that if I see a bee, I’ll have a panic attack and drop dead of a heart attack. That’s fear of fear. And then I have a camping trip coming up in three months, I’m scared, I’m going to see a bee and have a heart attack and die. It’s not worth it. I think I’ll cancel. That’s fear of fear of fear.

Martin Seif 11:37
And I you may have mentioned it, Sally in just a minute ago, I don’t remember. But certainly another way of thinking of anticipatory anxiety. It’s the avoidant component of anxiety. It’s the it’s the it’s the aspect of anxiety that says, Let me stay away from it. Oh, yes. You mentioned it a number of times, you avoided either physically, or, you know, just sort of imagine that you’re not there in some way. Okay. I think it’s, again …

Drew Linsalata 12:05
Yeah, experiential avoidance, I think people to what the mechanism is, could be really helpful for them. Because often I hear people declare failure, because they’re having anticipatory anxiety already. Like that’s failing already. Because I feel so I love when you say, Well, yeah, just recognize what’s happening, you’re afraid, which is allowed, because you’re afraid of being afraid of being afraid, it’s not a failure.

Sally Winston 12:28
No. And in fact, when you when you get better, and even are able to do all these things, anticipatory anxiety is usually the very last part to go. Because we can’t help ourselves from thinking forward into the future, and imagining what might happen, and also having memories of things that have happened, that intrude into our awareness. So getting out that door, getting over the hump, or pressing the submit button, or whatever it is that the action is, is affected by anticipatory anxiety, even after you’ve been doing everything pretty well. It’s just our body remembers our mind remembers, and we go through the same mechanisms.

Sally Winston 13:17
You know, and we have, you know, if you have an anxiety problem, and you have a sticky mind, which is one of the things that we talk about a lot, you tend to make the thinking errors and the looping kinds of round and round thinking that sticky minds give you and that doesn’t necessarily go away. So you again, get tricked by your mind.

Drew Linsalata 13:42
That’s just part of that normal human experience also, like expecting anticipatory anxiety to go away forever, permanently is not realistic, because everybody gets nervous.

Martin Seif 13:51
So that’s no as a matter of fact, is the opposite. There are people who comfortably do things over and over and over again, and still experience episodes or surges of anticipatory anxiety prior to do that, and to some extent, if a person says, Okay, this is my anticipatory anxiety, I know from past experience, it’s it’s a poor predictor. I know from past experiences, when I’m in that situation, I do find it’s a way of managing that anxiety in the present. I, you know, I tell people, anticipatory anxiety is real anxiety, but it’s anxiety generated, and it’s anxiety generated by your present thoughts. But the content of the thoughts are about something in the future that is present anxiety, and to pay attention to that and when you’re in that situation.

Drew Linsalata 14:39
Yeah, I had a question the other day from somebody exactly on that, well, they have a problem with needles and they’re doing so much better in their recovery. But if I know that I’m going to the doctor and they’re going to stick me even though I’ve had it done 1000 times I am freaked out until they do it, and then I’m totally cool. So I think it’s a great illustration of that.

Martin Seif 14:59
In this, there are enormous numbers of illustrations of anticipatory anxiety, partly because I’ve had so much influence to turn anxiety in my life like and think of it. But for example, one of the one of the issues that that people have trouble with elevators who have panic in elevators in some way, it’s it’s sometimes a difficult issue two, two, it’s a difficult anxiety to manage in some way, part of the reasons that it’s mostly anticipatory anxiety. If you speak to someone, they’re in the elevator, and what they’re really worrying is, when I get to the floor, and the elevator stops, will the door open? So it’s all anticipatory anxiety. And so the actual exposure is just that one second, when they wake up with a pause while the door open. Or another comment is lots of people who, who are afraid of flying. They they have anticipatory anxiety about about turbulence. So they’re on the plane, worrying, and that’s anticipatory anxiety, will we hit bumpy air? So it’s really it’s when you think of it that way. A lot of our anxieties are in anticipation of what I think frightens me.

Drew Linsalata 16:12
Yeah, yeah. Which makes perfect sense living in the future. Yeah.

Sally Winston 16:15
It’s not always about fear, though, we should also add that sometimes it’s about a situation that you think you might not be able to handle, or something that you know is going to be disgusting, or something that causes you to get angry every single time that happens. And if you find yourself unwilling to experience the emotion, or the physical sensations, then you get anticipatory anxiety, because you keep hoping that that won’t happen. And you keep trying to do something in the present, to make the fact that that is likely to happen or might happen, go away. And so the struggle with the anticipatory anxiety and the struggle, whether or not to commit to do the thing that you said you were going to do, that actually increases the anticipatory anxiety. And one of the things that we know is that avoiding a decision about going or trying to make a commitment, sort of maybe with a backup plan is actually less helpful, then deciding you’re gonna go no matter how you feel.

Drew Linsalata 17:27
But that waffling back and forth, the indecisive waffling …

Martin Seif 17:31
You can call a waffling, it’s actually reinforcing in our model, it’s actually reinforcing the anxiety, the anticipatory anxiety, avoidance. And Sally brought something up, you know, when you write a book together, because Sally and I co author, lots of things, sometimes, by the end of the book, you sort of forget who wrote which part and who thought of this things. But I know that Sally, I mean, this is definitely Sally’s input. You know, at one point, because she brought, we say that commitment is the antidote to avoidance. Okay. And I know that that Sally’s input, I’m pretty sure you. And and I think that’s a really important issue, because the fact is, avoidance is what maintains anxiety and commitment, no matter how you feel, is, in the long term, what actually is the therapeutic process, the therapeutic ingredient that reduces anxiety in some way, and I think, are a lot of what we what we talk about in the body of the book are our subtle ways in which people try to avoid, and then we give them an approach that says, “Okay, here’s how to commit”, I think we maybe use the word, therapeutic surrender and commit or something. Yeah. But it’s the notion of, I’m going to do it. I’m reducing my avoidance, and that’s going to help me overcome this anxiety.

Drew Linsalata 19:00
Yeah, I think one question I think people usually have is, so are you telling me that if I commit, and I see this all the time, like, my family really wants to go on vacation, but I’m still not sure, because I’m just getting over my agoraphobia … And so they don’t want to buy the plane tickets. I’m gonna buy them. No, no, no I’m not. And so people, well, if I hit the buy button, are you telling me that I won’t be anxious anymore?

Sally Winston 19:20
No!

Drew Linsalata 19:21
And the answer is yes. It means you probably will. But at least now you have a path to move through it more productively with that.

Sally Winston 19:28
Yeah, that’s one of the brilliant pieces of the original Southwest model that you could cancel anytime. And that was that’s actually a problem for people. Because if you know you can cancel then you don’t you don’t settle in your mind that you’re going and that back and forth, actually escalates your anxiety. But the minute that you do buy your ticket, what happens is that you feel a sense of being trapped.

Sally Winston 20:00
And your anxiety does go up. But the important thing about this is that if you understand what anxiety is, you understand it’s not dangerous, that it’s distress, but it’s not dangerous. You’re not going crazy, you’re not, it doesn’t mean you can’t go, it doesn’t mean that you are in danger in some way, your body is giving you false alarm signals. And you have to understand enough about anxiety so that you don’t respond to the false alarms as if they’re true alarms. Yeah, actually, when you’re mentioning that, it reminds me, the two general suggestions that we make for people is we’d like people to have a to change their … a change in perspective, that’s what we talked about, but also a change in attitude. There’s a natural … and what that means is to lean towards anxiety, rather than to get away from anxiety. So when you buy your ticket, and I had a lot of experience with that, because I ran this fear of flying group for for 19 years, we and I would insist that people buy their ticket after the first meeting. And there was a lot of resistance, but but when people did it, they realized that they were leaning towards anxiety, you know, it’s the notion you can be silly about I tell people what the day was that anxiety is like a day without sunshine, you know, because the fact is, it allows you to really learn to practice exactly what we’re talking about in some way. So it puts you into that. And into that mode, the real issue is people buy, buy a ticket, they get anxious, but that in their mind is not a commitment, because then they say, “Well, I can always go out and maybe I can get a credit” and all these kinds of mental machinations. These are actually many avoidances. Or as you would say, waffling or back and forth, the notion that I’m leaning into anxiety, and I’m not going to allow myself to

Martin Seif 22:03
consider the possibility of not doing it. That’s a much more productive therapeutic perspective.

Drew Linsalata 22:10
Well, that puts a target beyond just the plane, that flight and on to the rest of your life. Also, like if I get better at this episode, it helps me later, not just now,

Sally Winston 22:21
The important thing is to understand what leaning in really means because people think that it means that, first of all, that you have to accept being miserable forever, which is not what we’re saying. But also people tend to do something called white knuckle or force themselves to do things that they’re scared to do with the attitude of hoping that it’s over as soon as possible, trying really, really hard not to feel anxious, pushing it themselves in some way that actually isn’t very helpful. And that’s what we call paradoxical effort. Because one of the things that that we’re aware of is that effort inside the mind works very differently from effort outside the mind, you know, if I want to move a table, I will put my hands on it, put in effort and push. And hopefully, it’s not too heavy a table and I can move it across the room. But if I have a feeling or a thought, or a sensation in my body, and I put in the same kind of effort, stop the thought get rid of the sensation, make this go away, it works backwards, it actually makes it all worse. And so understanding that the inside of the mind doesn’t respond to that kind of effort, that you need to be willing to feel what you’re feeling, experience what you’re experiencing, and not feel like you have to do something to make it go away. And most of the people that we run into, of course, are problem solvers, action people, people who want to figure out a way. And the idea that the way is to not do anything, and to allow the experience to unfold is extremely difficult. It’s not a natural position to take. And so that is part of the training or the or the message of the book is that it’s not natural to you what’s going to be natural is to look for a solution, you know, find an answer, analyze this. So it’ll go away, then all of the ways that people problem solve in the real world, and it doesn’t work for this.

Drew Linsalata 24:43
One of the things that you guys wrote in the book that I had a big, you know, highlight on was, which I what I want to do is in our last 10 minutes want to connect it to GAD because you did and I had a huge highlight there, because it seems like anticipatory anxiety and the traits of somebody with GAD or match made in heaven, like the problem solving that you’re just talking about.

Drew Linsalata 24:59
And then I’m gonna talk about how you start to deconstruct some of the beliefs that justify the worry. And then how are you going to get somebody to start to practice? You know, moving through anticipatory anxiety. So the GAD thing when you connected that I was that was one of those fist pump moments like, yes, 100% Correct. This is your experience, I’m guessing they come hand in hand, I would guess.

Sally Winston 25:22
We’ve believed for a long time that Generalized Anxiety Disorder, it can be looked at as OCD light. Because the way that it works is even though the the content may not be bizarre or strange, it may be things that other people worry about to the way that it works. has the same structure as OCD starts with a what if? And then that’s your imagination. And then there’s something at the end of the sentence, what if something, and then the other side of worry, is some attempt to make the worry go away? And that occupies the compulsion place? Usually, the compulsions in generalized anxiety disorder are all in your head. So they’re obvious. So when they’re not obvious, so that when people say I want to stop worrying, they don’t realize that the worry actually has two parts. There’s the pop up “What if”, and then there’s the attempt to make yourself feel better. Or make the what if go away, or make the anxiety or the disgust or the upset that went with the what if go away, and that alternates just the same way as it does in OCD. So it very much is part of a continuum.

Drew Linsalata 26:42
I think for people like that, that gets stuck in those worry about worry, thinking about thinking cycles, you also talked about justified, anticipatory anxiety where people want to stand up for it saying, No no! This is why I’m supposed to think about this continuously and obsessively.” So I think that sort of goes down the road where now you talked about deconstructing some of those false metacognitive beliefs. Can we go through those?

Martin Seif 27:05
First of all that worrying about well … backup a little bit. Worrying can often start out as what we call problem solving, trying to solve a problem. And we would say that real problem solving comes up with some sort of solution or temporary solution or action plan. And then that looping stops. Worrying is really what if thing about something that either doesn’t have an answer, or you don’t have enough information to get an answer, or it. Those are two of the major things that worry about. And as a result, people will often believe that worrying has great beneficial effects. Number one, it keeps them motivated. Number two, it sort of makes sure that they’re not lazy and keep some vigilant in somewhere something bad happens I’ll be, I’ll be, I’ll be prepared for it when in fact, when bad things happen most often they come from out of the blue and they blindside us in some way.

Martin Seif 28:50
when you believe there’s some benefit to it in some way. Some people believe that work I’m sorry Sally. You’re gonna say something? I’m sure you have more to say about this if you want.

Sally Winston 29:00
Well… I think we write together whatever you talk, I have things to say. But

Sally Winston 29:07
I was also thinking about the function of worry of people thinking that they’re loyal to whoever if they’re worrying about someone that that’s somehow an act of loyalty or love to worry about them which of course all it does is make you distressed it doesn’t keep them safe or do anything for them. The other piece of it is that because because the way that a worry is constructed with a what if and a something people have a what if that’s about this big, and then they have an IT IS CANCER!!! What if … IT IS CANCER!!! And then their response is “Oh my god cancer?” I’ve got to think about it. What can I do? Instead of looking at the what ifs which David Carbonell calls let’s pretend it’s actually your imagination, and just being able to identify that lets you see that it’s the way that you’re thinking and not cancer. That’s the issue.

Martin Seif 30:00
I have one more comment to make about, about worrying, which I think is sort of interesting, because I’ve queried a lot of patients about worrying. And patients who I consider to be pretty solid. I mean, they’re, you know, they that a lot of them say, you know, believe it or not, I actually feel that worrying really increases my real life chances of something good happening or protecting myself or something, there’s a kind of almost magical protection that goes on with worrying. So the way you think about is people don’t like to worry, but they don’t like not to worry, they feel too vulnerable. They don’t worry in some way. So it’s a complicated process.

Drew Linsalata 30:50
So when you’re trying to work somebody through this, and you’re trying to get them to the point where they start to take that more mindful approach, and they start to do that therapeutic surrender, they really have to leave these faulty beliefs behind. Whether it says sort of a GAD loop, or it’s anticipatory anxiety about, you know, something else, or legitimate life stuff, you’re dropping your beliefs on the floor, that I shouldn’t …

Martin Seif 31:10
Look for skepticism, okay? At least questionnaire with some with with that sort of skepticism in some way, because it’s very hard for people to drop it. And, and, you know, as Sally often says, Our goal with patients is to reduce their suffering. And if they can just not be so rigid, not hold on to those beliefs quite so rigidly and and they don’t worry as much their suffering is reduced. And we’re helping them in that way. Yeah, it’s not an all or nothing concept.

Drew Linsalata 31:46
We could probably go for another hour, I know that everybody’s gonna dig this. But to sort of, let’s get to the part that I know everybody’s gonna want to ask, so I am riddled with anticipatory anxiety. What would these two people tell me to do? Like how you know, and by the way, just read the book, because they, there’s a lot to go over here that we can’t do in a half hour podcast. But what’s the general goal, you start to deconstruct those beliefs start to look at them a little bit skeptically understand what the process is, so you can start to realize what’s going on? What do I do? How do we get out of this?

Martin Seif 32:18
Four part thing, which I think she should talk about one

Sally Winston 32:21
One two .. five.

Sally Winston 32:27
It’s a it’s an acronym – DANCE – which this is going to test my memory here. The first D is for discern or distinguish or designate or basically label the thought so that you know that you’re in anticipatory anxiety land. So you’ve got to figure out where you are.

Sally Winston 32:52
A is accept, which means don’t start pushing away at it and trying to get rid of it.

Sally Winston 32:36
And is NO. All kinds of no’s. No engaging with it. No struggling with it. No analyzing it, no pushing on it. No, no trying to get rid of it. C is commit to the action.

Sally Winston 33:18
And E is embrace whatever you’re feeling along the way. And it’s it’s a very important …

Martin Seif 33:25
And let time pass, embrace the moment and allow time to pass, which is a very difficult skill. But it’s a it’s it’s it’s sort of central to all forms of modern anxiety treatment. Certainly starting with Claire Weekes and going through all the different things up to today.

Drew Linsalata 33:45
Let time pass … right out of the Australian grandma manual everybody loves.

Drew Linsalata 33:52
yeah, yeah. So I appreciate you guys taking the time here. I think that’s a great Is there anything else you want to add? I mean, we don’t have to end now. I’m trying not to keep you guys. I know you’re busy. But you know, those are sort of the five steps. But I would urge everybody, if you want to know more, I will link this and I’ll come back to wrap up at the end. So you can go get the book. But there’s so much really great information. And the thing that I loved about it is this is not just old school. You guys are not newly licensed. You’ve been at it for a little while. Clearly you have a reputation and I love how you are right here in the 2023. In this book, it’s not. This is not old school worksheet thought challenging stuff. So there’s so many great concepts here. So many concepts in this book.

Sally Winston 34:40
Yeah, it’s just just to mention it is the third of a series. And if you read one, two and three, it might make a little more sense. The one is the Overcoming Unwanted Intrusive, intrusive Thoughts. Not just any intrusive thoughts, but unwanted ones.

Sally Winston 35:00
The second is Needing To Know For Sure which is really about checking compulsions and reassurance, compulsions and subtle kinds of compulsions that people might not realize are compulsions and this is the third in the series and they do sort of fall off from each other, although they each stand alone as well. One of the things that has them that ties them together are these three characters that we have in our minds that everyone has worried voice, false comfort and wise mind. And we don’t introduce that trio until quite far into the Overcoming Anticipatory Anxiety book. But it the illustrations of the dialogues among these three voices are are useful ways of being able to observe your own voices and then see what you’re doing. So I would encourage people to, to think about reading the other the other books as well.

Drew Linsalata 35:59
I will link them to I’ve read them all, they’re all outstanding. They are such excellent ways to explain so many of the things you hear in this podcast again and again. And again, like just another set of voices that do a great, great job of explaining. So I appreciate you guys coming out. It was really, really great. I appreciate your time so much. You’re welcome here anytime. So

Drew Linsalata 36:21
yeah, what I’ll do is, yeah, I will come back at the end. If you guys hang out to the end, I’ll come back, wrap it up. I’ll give you a URL to go to theanxioustruth.com/247 to get the books and any way that you guys want to me to send people to find you. I will do that. So thank you very much.

Sally Winston 36:38
Nice talking to you here.

Links of Interest

Drs. Seif and Winston write the “Living With A Sticky Mind” blog on Psychology Today

Dr. Winston can be found and the Anxiety And Stress Disorders Institutes of Maryland

“Overcoming Anticipatory Anxiety” on Amazon: